uh oh my God you're sitting right here thought your sister was you when I said that thing about everyone everyone's going to look like Elizabeth um uh so uh you want to talk about you know people that need no no introduction it's you and and fer thank you for your your labors over there and if you want to pull a chair over in time and join in in the conversation we're happy to have you sit right here because you guys are a dynamic duo uh and and together you're more than the sum of your parts let's just say that and I might call you over cuz you're the you're the experienced one in this okay I mean so I'm going to I'm you know there in some traditions there's a chair waiting at the Passover seder uh here uh and it's not exactly the same thing here but El's chair would uh uh welcome you to so Robert thank you very much indeed this this is a broad brush on pilgrimage and what it's meant to people of faith not just the Christian faith but many different faiths throughout the ages and when I say throughout the ages I'm meaning going all the way back into Antiquity there's always been a sense of walking to find a holy place and the holy place might have something to do with the founder of a particular particular way of believing or it might have to do with someone who was just a holy person who lived in a a particular place but if you think about it uh you can go right back into the Old Testament and and find even with um Jacob going out on his his uh his his fearsome Journey when he's terrified of his brother Esau whom he's really wounded uh and do you remember he's he takes a rock in the desert and lies on it to sleep and sees that that vision of the ladder set up and down to heaven and in the morning he takes the the um the stone uh and anoints it with oil and says how awesome is this place this is none other than the house of God this is the Gate of Heaven and it became bethl which actually became and in some ways still is a a marker of a particular type of Faith but we can go to the Greeks we can go to the Romans certainly um you can think of for example the descriptions given in the Acts of the Apostles of the Temple of um emis if you want the Greek and and um manura in the in the um uh the Latin but normally no Diana sorry in the LA I thought I had that wrong um and and the people are all shouting shouting when they think Paul is going to damage the more or less commercial value of their Shrine because people come from all over the world to see the temple of the great Diana if you're Roman emis if you're Greek emis of the Ephesians so many of these places have a beginning which is lost in the midsts of time and the nearer you get to to the the the what we would have called the Middle East then you find those shrines where people would come together but you can go right across the world and find the same that in Buddhism and in Shinto just as in the abrahamic faith Christianity and Judaism and Islam you have these holy places where people feel a desire to walk to be there and when you when you when you have done the walk then you're speaking about Body Mind and Spirit all taking part and something is is is there for your should we say spiritual advancement now that word spiritual has to be taken in the wi widest possible context you might be going to a river as in the Hindu um religion with the the Holiness of the Ganges or you might be going on the Hage to Mecca which every Muslim is meant if they have the um wherewithal to do it and can keep their family furnished with with the Earth's resources while they're away everyone is meant to do that once in a lifetime and the Gathering of the Haj in in pictures in Mecca is mindblowing with the number of people who were there you look down at at at that and and now of course was it with you I was watching the thing the other night of of of the clock which has been put in the middle of of the the of Mecca so that people can always see also where the East is and what the time is for the hours of prayer this enormous clock and quirky are the ways of any faith and religion but the architect whom they chose to build this huge clock is not Islamic and therefore he's not allowed to go there to to see it which is strange he can only see it you know with television photographs and things but shrines are deeply protected sometimes their shrines if one's been with with tribal societies you find find them in the middle of Woodlands if you've been with indigenous people here in the states there are other holy places and all of us have these areas where we think I would just love to go there I think um the one time I was really in need of going on pilgrimage was in 1985 just after my mother died and I wasn't very well and I I I read a book um called God's fool which is about St Francis of aisi and I knew at once that I had to go there not with anybody else but to go there by myself so I made the journey across Europe to a CCE and my goodness I wasn't disappointed it was the most holy place and it was full of mus and it was Springtime and the the the the flowers were coming out and there were scents and sounds all around and and goodly people leading prayers in the various churches of AI especially in the big Basilica with the the lovely wall paintings by jot and and chimwe so actually AI is really top of the list for me only because of the experience that I had there and all of us would have had different experiences if one has set out and found the the object of one's Journey which is a a really important thing to do sometimes you go in a group which has going to obamaga which is quite different really that's not so much a pilgrimage as a wonderful journey to to to experience the gospel and how it comes right out of the Old Testament with those lovely Tableau but at the same time you do Journey to do it and for that I led a parish Journey which is a different exercise so if you think for the moment of the the holy places of Europe then the three big ones were always Jerusalem and Rome and Santiago de compostella I would want to add as the keeper of it for 21 years Canterbury Cathedral because it was one of the biggest pilgrims sites throughout the whole of Europe at the the high point of after becket's martyrdom and through the medieval times and it was so until the king destroyed becket's um Shrine completely and I think he destroyed it because it was so um so frightening to him it was so powerful people don't like this this kind of power coming there but nevertheless uh it it it's still has the candle burning there but today let's let's concentrate on the journey to um Jerusalem and the journey to Rome and the journey to Santiago and then we can talk a little bit about it and I'll ask Fletcher to talk a bit about the journey to Santiago because he's just done the English roote and and um you can tell us all about it in a moment uh but but that would be good to hear um so first and foremost from Canterbury there was a route which came across to the European route which joined up with the roots that came down to go to Santiago to compostella to the shrine of St James or there was another route which was called the Via franina and that was a very long route which took you right across Europe diagonally all the way to Rome it me you meant you had to cross the Alps um and say you chose your your your weather well um and it was plotted almost by accident by Archbishop siger who because the archbishops in those days had to when they were appointed had to go all the way to Rome to get their pallum which was the the vestment that they wore to show they were the primate of all England and they got that from the Pope and it had to be given by the Pope's hands so they had to travel and goodness it must have been however much money you had quite uncomfortable traveling through the whole of Europe and sometimes quite dangerous traveling as you as you went along but Arch Bishop cidc uh was someone who kept good records and he set off and we're now talking um 9th century uh and he set off on his way with his resue not thinking it was a pilgrimage but thinking it was a journey to get the pallum for his next vocation as Archbishop of Canterbury and on the way he kept a record of everywhere they stayed and also how much it cost at the time and that record exists still in the cathedral library and you can see that the the rather minute but very tidy writing Of The Scribe and what is so amazing is that many of those holy places which gave Hospitality as they went along are still there and so you can go through France and down the through Andross the Alps and find Cathedrals like RS as we say the French call it and and um into Switzerland where where monasteries still exist that are there in in Ci's um um um accounts and then down into Italy itself until you come to Rome now that has become quite a challenge for many people to go from Canterbury all the way to Rome and they do it and some do it in in um batches I had two people here this morning in the congregation who came up to me afterwards and said uh we're pilgrims and I said oh are you where from from Canterbury so um I said well what to Santiago and they said oh no franina so I held my hands up in amazement because they were not young and uh they said that we actually split it up and did it three years running in 400 mile bursts and uh they did it and it reminded me of two people who had come to me one morning in the Eucharist in Canterbury Cathedral at uh 8:00 and afterwards i greeting people at the door I said I don't think we know each other he said no we are from New Zealand uh and uh sadly we lost our son and our finding it very difficult to cope with and so in the end uh what we thought we would do was be to fly to canabury and walk the franches and all in one go and so I took them up to the shrine of St Thomas which is what our habit was and blessed them there and they I took them to the gate of the there's a stone where you start in Canterbury and it shows a pilgrim and on it it says you know step one of the Via franina and um then I saw them through the gate and off they went and I forgot all about it and 3 months later I got a postcard from this couple saying it was everything that we expected it to be and thank you for the beginning so something about the walking you know these um these labyrinths which are so often in churches these days and you can go and walk a labyrinths and also around the outside is uh generally an inscription in Latin sometimes solva ambulando which means you solve it by walking it and it's one of those little sort of texts for life you work it out by living it uh and solv ambulando is something that I I quite often think well to get there we must you know this it's going to be hard work but it's the only way to just get there and sometimes it's a fruitless exercise but when suddenly that spiritual Dimension opens up then you really feel that the whole thing has been not just worthwhile but life changing and and mind changing and certainly after the aisi exercise iel I came back and felt a completely different person and life then took different directions and things of that sort but I often think it would be a nice thing to write down in a book and and just in a paragraph describe um the event moments that have been lifechanging for me in vocation and they are moments that include people that really are are not um not necessarily very important and might not even remember doing what they did but that would be a different kind of description of a pilgrimage because every pilgrimage really is an illustration of life from birth to death and uh the the the way in which uh pilgrimage was used used as a word early on in the the the books that were were being written shows just that uh if you think of Dante with the Divine Comedy he calls that a pilgrimage going through and he is Led not across the paths of Earth but through from hell to Purgatory up Mount purgatory and into the the Blessed realm of of paradise that's different if you think of buan then he in writing his his book his dear reader sort of book that that he writes um I I found a den and I began to dream and this is my dream on the way through and probably there's not a more popular book uh a Christian book for English-speaking people and many others uh than the Pilgrim's Progress then and yet these images and the way he names the sort of people that he meeting on the way become really important in this so franina I suppose I should just mention our friend who who walked the whole of the Fran when he was in complete disarray with his life it was falling apart um And he as he walked just he was going to Rome and he got to Rome in set off in midwinter I set him off on a midwinter day uh on January the 1st and then he he he he got to um to Rome and got to St Peter Square on Easter day that was his aim and he found it claustrophobic as though this wasn't this wasn't where he was meant to be and so he went on and caught a boat and got over to Constantinople Istanbul and by then he was actually being cared for by people who understood pilgrimage absolutely perfectly but they were Islamic and it mattered not a bit he describes every bit of this uh and then when he got to Istanbul he thought now I must go on to Jerusalem and he went on to Jerusalem and even in Jerusalem he didn't find satisfaction he was pushed onwards onwards I'm not going to give you the end because it's called it's called actually the Crossway gag and his name is gu stag with a double G and it's such compulsive reading I don't want to spoil it for you at the end so the cross Way by Guy stag is a book on pilgrimage which really is worth reading and his his his healing is complete he's now a a very well-known journalist and broadcaster but this was at a time when his his life was in complete ruins so there's franina and there's the journey to Rome and at the same time Jerusalem where all the faiths seem to come together I never forget being in Jerusalem on Pentecost day when all the faiths were going this way and that and everyone seemed to be making room for everyone else and you felt well there's an awful lot of coming and going which ends up in the same point but that was Jerusalem at Easter time and what Jerusalem is like now I I I think must be full of fear and and and U you know the sense of of um Terror almost at what's going to happen next so our prayers are are really strong for the holy land and then we come to Santiago and um do you want to come and join me here on and not not really but I will we have much happier hiding around the corner we have recently uh opened a hospital in Santiago just walking distance from the ilica of St James and uh is a little hotel and we discovered in Santiago by acting as chaplins there that there was no real Provisions for Anglican worship Episcopal worship and so not only did we open this but we also were loaned on a sort of permanent loan the Church of Santa Susanna by the Archbishop of of Santiago the Catholic Archbishop which we use for services which is by the Basilica uh but at the same time Casa angliana can give a home and we hope it'll grow bigger um for uh those who are coming on pilgrimage as young people from our particular tradition and nice onsuite rooms most of them and a nice Garden which you've planned and executed so lots of water in it as always with well I think n I should say that the this was really the brainchild of Nancy hawy me and the bishop of the Spanish Episcopal Church um and uh they um had identified the need really for a reception point for Episcopal anglicans to be able to sort of find a home in Santiago um when they went there um on pilgrimage um that there was a situation um which was rather difficult I think for the local Arch dasis um where although after Vatican 2 there's ecumenical Hospitality as we call it that if uh anyone of a recognized um um in communion sort of Christian faith um finds themselves away from their own church um that actually they can receive communion even in the Roman Catholic church and so um and that that can be granted and that had been happening for many years in Santiago um but with the enormous growth of Episcopal anglicans particularly um doing the pilgrimage um you ended up with some situations where a line share of the of the um mass in the silica um were not Roman Catholic and this was posing a lot of problems for the arch dasis for obvious reasons and so um so they they were um uh very interested in um hospitable terms as well in providing a place where Episcopal anglicans could uh could really sort of have their own church and their own identity and their own traditions of worship and um and so the idea really was presented to the our great friend the bishop of the Episcopal Church of Spain um where they would gift uh the the Santo Susanna Church um which is in the middle of the for those of you that have been to Santiago is in the middle of the park there is a beautiful location and Santa Susanna is one of the patron saints of the city um and sadly the city is named after St James um but um but Susanna was there I think almost beforehand and so so for the locals it's a very um prestigious church and it's a beautiful place um and uh then in terms of of hospitality um and a reception Point um it was then thought that that we could probably do a bit better um and I'm saying very grandly we we weren't part of this at the time um and and so Nancy and the bishop um found a wonderful um going concern um which is a a hotel that was small hotel that was up and running that had been carved out of an original Convent just 5 minutes from the Basilica and um they uh took this on as a as a working Hotel so that we knew that the Financial Security would be there because we had four books um all the way through the season and it meant that we could actually make changes um and Renovations on the building um without the um the financial liability of starting something aresh and what we found is something that we had created with the lodge um in Canterbury many of you may have stayed there um where uh it's a melting po of those that have gone to Santiago for Spiritual reasons and those for purely touristic ones and honestly the truth you know for every one of those people is probably six of one and a half a dozen depending upon on the day that they're there um and and the minute that they're thinking about certain things or not thinking about certain things and so um so it means that we've got a wonderful group of people who go to the city sometimes for buil Regions sometimes for not and at breakfast each morning they can sit together and share in multiple different languages um their ideas and viewpoints of the world and and and it's it's provided a really good Hub um and evening they can have their feet bound and their blisters healed and their washing done and then uh have a drink in the garden uh and it it it works very well but I'm wanting not to stay just there because I want you to say why you felt you needed to go on pilgrimage yourself well really as a trustee of a pilgrim Center not having done pilgrimage it's not very good for advertising so um so I thought that um rather than we had obviously a lot of experience of of pilgrimage not active experience but of receiving pilgrims coming to Canterbury um of of thousands of people who who very often we would include back um for breakfast after the service in the morning and we would speak to them about their intentions about what they were hoping to get or what they had gained from if they were coming the other way um from having walked or traveled by bus or by by any other means because it's important to stress that however you do pilgrimage um so long as it has Integrity um and is the way in which you feel that you are able to do it um it's got perfect validity and so um you know one thingss about the medieval pilgrims and people would have used horses or carriages or or other means of Transport the reason they didn't use jet aircraft and coaches was because they hadn't yet been invented and so um that the um but I think there is a perfect um combination of using Body Mind and Spirit and so if you are able to do it in a physical form cycling walking horseback however um then I think that actually there is a sort of um there's something more gained um because actually it gives you space and time to be able to actually be with your thoughts and be with your emotions and your faith um and to allow that to come out now my friend is very highminded and therefore when this started um there were plenty of Pilgrim offers to stay at nice hotels and have your luggage taken on to this and you said well that's not being a pilgrim I'm intending to do it with a tent and I'm going to carry everything with me and you did I should stress this is only the English pilgrimage and so it's a very short one something it is but um but um but it was it's not the full French one so it sounds very clever but actually it was only a week um um but um and I should also stress that I'd never been um even in a t before so this was all very new so um so um so I think that um when I spoke to various friends and members of my family and they said I'm sorry you're doing what and so you're you're doing this and and so I think that was one of the reasons actually to your point that I wanted to do it I needed to prove that to myself that I could do it um and and some of the calamitous events that I can talk about later um um uh you know were were part of the journey um so I mean actually I think that what I did realize was that um that it's the low points like a microcosm of life and pilgrimages a microcosm of life is the low points that Define you and that really actually are the bits that you remember and it's how you come through those low points and so um and it's not the really lovely easy bits where you walk in this bird song and the sun shining although you don't don't want it ever to be shining too much because you are walking inside it without much shelter um but uh but it's actually the times when you've been walking by yourself for 5 hours and it's hammering down with rain um and you're going through um areas where there's uh eucalyptus plantations and so very little life because there's not much life that lives on eucalyptus as opposed to the to the native um Woodlands of Oak and Ash and Beach um but um but it's it's those times when you remember back I remember back to walking and the only company was the raindrops and and suddenly you you you become acutely aware and attuned to what you have around you um you're freed temporarily um from all of the sort of burdens and and the sort of the difficulties and the thoughts and and and the things that fill our minds in the ordinary life um and you can escape for a small amount of time to be able to actually connect with the things that actually really matter um and and that's for me creation its nature um it's one's own thoughts and how those relate to spirituality um and it's it's important to stress probably that I I deliberately picked the English route because there is a little bit of a case of victim of its own success as there is with the center because we're wanting now with the center as a segue um to um uh to now expand that because we're running at such a high occupancy rate that we've now got so many complaints from episcopalians and anglicans who want to go and stay and they can't ever get in and so um so so we're now wanting to look at whether or we could take over the rest of the building to then and then um sort of expand that um which would provide facilities for doing work with the arch dasis and with the city um and to be a real cultural Hub as well um but but I in Walking um didn't want to do the French route because I'd heard um horror stories about the number of people that are doing it and I was doing it in July one of the Peaks Peak months um and so I thought well um which other routes could I take the Portuguese route is now now becoming extremely popular coming up from Porto um and uh so I looked at the English route and at the moment although this probably isn't going to help matters um um only 4% of people doing pilgrimage um do the English route it's tough going it's not the toughest but it's but it's it's not the easiest either um and so um but it's uh but it's incredibly beautiful um and um the the other thing that I had in mind was the fact that I didn't I'm not very good at completing things and so I'm I'm I'm good at completing things if I can um do it all in one um but I I thought that actually I didn't want to leave things hanging over and the idea of doing a French one which can take six weeks um is the idea that um I would do a a leg a certain section of it and never quite finish and I thought well I I I want to prove this to myself that I can do it and I want to do it in its entirety and so I thought the ID of doing one that was only 5 days is perfectly doable it's a good entry um into doing something longer if I then wanted to do it having done one I now do want to do it um it becomes terribly addictive I've never done a marathon but speaking to marathon runners say once you've done one you get such a buzz that you really want to go and do another one and I think pilgrimage can be a bit like that for many people talk about the kindness you met on the way cuz our time is limited but I will um I it was um it was interesting I it was very quiet so I only came across a small number of pilgrims each day um which was ideal and they seemed to come at just the time I needed them to come so I'd walk along and I had this wonderful app um the Cino app um which showed me the terrain that I was coming up to and I'd be sort of strolling on thinking oh this is really easy I can do this there's no problem at all and then look at the app and think oh golly um and then see um the the the um the size of the mountain that was coming up um and at that point while I had a degree of trepidation about whether or not I could actually carry the tent and the pack and everything else um remember it's the first time I'd ever done anything as stupid as this um um that um that I um then met somebody and actually talking to somebody else and hearing their conversations a lady from Denmark another from Spain um uh a gentleman from from Italy um you know that um English always being the linga franer and and being able to speak in English with my pigeon sort of um other other languages but um but but I think that the um the sharing of those experiences and looking back with people that um are probably never speak to again um but who have become very important to me inside um because those were moments that I shared with that person um of of walking up where we both found it difficult at different times and different stretches and the same as life um then actually we helped one another um and then we moved on and so and I think that um that the kindness really came I was expecting it to be uh really well organized from a church perspective it was disastrous and I think that France is much better than Spain and many people when you read the accounts have have um written about this um that I only found one church that was open um and you have to get these these stamps these to get your credentials when you get into Santiago and so I was thinking well I don't really want to do this but if I want to get a credential and I suppose if I'm doing it I might as well get one um then I'm going to be the best stamp collector ever so so with this sort of you know conversion Zeal I thought fine um and uh so went um sometimes up a mile and a half tracks to find the nearest church only for it to be Clos and so um so consequently it's be 115 km I ended up doing 165 so um so so if if you're doing pilgrimage never follow me because I I'll be leading you in all the wrong directions clearly um but um but actually what you did find was the kindness of the people in the bars in these tiny little villages in the middle of nowhere and bearing in mind this isn't a very wellestablished track because this is the English route and not the French route um and so um it just comes down for those of you that know the geography of the area um from feral um you can also do it from aarun um but AAR runia is not long enough to get the certificate and so you can you can do it in 4 days as opposed to five or six um and uh but but you need to be warned that you won't get the credential when you get to Santiago um but uh but from for all you go through very very wild areas um and the scenery is breathtaking um and the the kindness of strangers is is even more so um and so for instance um I I remember one particular time when I I was getting towards the end of the of my time and and uh just one stop from Santiago completely exhausted um and and feeling really tired I'd walked about 30 km that day um and Dred and was completely drenched um and um uh and walked into a bar um and uh and and I I only e fish on Fridays and so um and this lovely girl came up and she said oh perago perago and so um Pilgrim Pilgrim um and she said um momental and so she went off and and she got some food and brought it back and it was the most delicious looking meat St I've ever seen in my life and I thought I can't I can't do it and so so I said I'm really sorry but I can't and so um she said um she said she said oh I'm sorry do you not eat meat and I said it's Friday um and so she said oh and and she clearly felt that she' offended me and I said please don't worry it's my fault I'm very happy just with a drink um and then she instantly came back with the most delicious russing salad I've ever seen in my life and so and I which I ate hungrily um and then her colleague came back laughing and gave me an even bigger bowl and so um so I thought that you know the sensitivity and kindness um shown shown by so many individuals and I think it restores one's faith in many ways um and again gives you perspective um and so I I hope that many people um do what I've tried to do um which is to bring many of those lessons back and to remember them um and to put them back into your life when you're back into the ordinary thank you um we and I'm conscious of lunchtime and everything else um have any questions or comments your self about pilgrimage yeah why is the certificate so important I don't know that it is um and so I just felt that it would be nice to have something tangible when I got back um and um it wasn't really a very good experience I mean I don't want to to speak ill of the arch nasis but um but I think that we'd always striven in Canterbury to be um a reception point at all hours of the day and so um since Augustine came there were gate Keepers um who look after the precinct or Gates so so the gates are closed it's holy space within the within the precincts um and uh dating back from the Thousand Years when it was a monastery um and um the uh Gatekeepers were instructed always to let pilgrims in and so and the candle Tower Burns all night um as as mentioned even in in cha um and um so um and always the The Gatekeepers would give sustenance to people and sort of help them with directions if they needed that even if it was 2: in the morning and usually The Gatekeepers will be really happy if they found somebody because they're usually you know going through the night shift we're just glad of somebody to speak with um um but um sadly um everything I think because of the great numbers of people that are going to Santiago now um um everything has become very processed um and a little bit cold um and so um when you come in uh to the reception Point there's a degree of of standing in line and typing all of your details into a computer instead of meeting somebody person um and then getting a print out with a QR code which you then scan um and then so that that bit's not great um and so and then somebody who um has you know clearly had not a great day and is rather bored and it depends upon the individual um uh then sort of stamping something without even a sort of hello let alone a congratulations um and that so it's a little bit of a a disappointment um and so but then it's about like the rest of the journey it's about not taking preconceptions with you and it's about actually appreciating the things that do happen and so the thing that I do remember on that day is not that bureaucratic nonsense um and the certificate which I have to confess is sad at the bottom of my wardrobe since I got back and I've never looked at um and um but it was um the the fact that there were a Canadian couple of people who were uh from the Church of Canada who were volunteering at the information center through that week and while Robert was working for two weeks as the chaplain at Santos Suzanna Church we'd become quite friendly with them and um by pure God's will intervention sort of um chance um uh when I walked into the square um to stand in front of the Basilica there they were and so in this pack crowd they happen to be the people that I met and so I think there were so many chance occasions like that that actually really move you um and I think that being away from the busyness of life it allows you to see more clearly um and to appreciate those moments if you can believe a medieval Pope the certificates of plenary indulgence for every sin you've [Laughter] committed but to your point I I I did the certificate does matter but I just thought if I'm doing it hey I might as well get it so yeah yeah well I guess I didn't know if it was important for the churches along the way that well I think that actually you know that to that point um and and this is another sort of and it's not a particularly Catholic thing um but it's a church thing in general um I think that um one of the things that we get very angry about um is the fact that um sorry I'm I'm jumping ahead one of the useful things of the certificate um and filling in and going through the regulated form of pilgrimage which is phenomenally put together and organized by um the the the Aris of Santiago um with enormous amount of help and provision given to pilgrims as they're going through so I don't want to be all negative about that because it is it's quite an operation it's very impressive um but um the I think that they are using that to be able to compile an enormous amount of information um which I think like our own National churches should not be misinterpreted and and and so there are many reports about the fact that people are going on pilgrimage and now supposedly a majority of people are going on pilgrimage not for Spiritual reasons now the difficulty with that is that you don't know when people might go not for Spiritual reasons but actually have a spiritual encounter um and and be moved very spiritually or they may have a lot of baggage because of the historic wrongs of churches um and not want to declare that um because they might be going personally for that but they don't want to be counted for whatever reason on a form for that and so the problem now is the fact that more and more people are saying um you know we shouldn't be allowing pilgrimage to people that aren't going for Spiritual reasons which is so crazy because how on Earth do you bring people in and so you know that um that if you don't allow access points and opportunities for people to engage like all the church is being shut then actually how on Earth do you ever think that there'll be a church in the future and so and that could be the English church it could be the Episcopal Church as much as it could be the Roman Catholic Church in Spain and so um and so I think that there are again lessons to be learned from an administrative point of view within the church um that actually were just interesting like the speaker in the House of Commons the reor is on his feet so we give place oh no I just want now I thought you might feel we'd run out of time yes please just a brief sharing that my daughter and her husband on their honeymoon went to Japan and they did a 4day trek along the shent Route and they came back and they said it was the best portion of their two it seems to matter literal which denomination or branch of Faith you're in that something deep inside you is is helped by this aspect Char this reminds me of people who walk the Appalachian Trail yeah Pacific Trail I forget what they call it quite often they will do that after a divorce or you know crisis in their lives yeah and their lives have changed they are and I think there's one of the sadnesses I think there's so much baggage I've used that term already but there's so much baggage that goes with religion and so and I think that um that the church has been very bad about presenting itself and first of all um addressing historic wrongs um and then actually reminding people that actually the historic wrongs are a tiny percentage about the work that goes on with churches and so I think that that in an in increasingly secularized time um that the church is not there to provide the uh framework um for allowing people to connect and I don't mean that the is essential for people to be in the pews um but I think that actually there's a there's a a sadness in the fact that more and more people are wanting to reach out and to connect with something much bigger than ourselves um and traditionally uh and that can be nefarious too um and too controlling um but traditionally the church has helped them to be able to find ways to connect and and it's interesting that when we come to services Roberts often asked to take SEC secular services and we sit down with people and and um and sort of try to help them and say funerals or or or blessings or the equivalent of a baptism and they'll say um you know but we we'd like to sing something together um but the only thing we all know is that himym we all used to sing at s we could we have a hymn and so you say yeah of course we can have a him you know Morning Has Broken and so and then then they'll say but it' be quite nice to actually have something which actually sort of centers everybody um you know we don't want God we don't want god um and and we don't want religion but maybe we could have like something that looks like a prayer and so so and and I think that actually people want that but they don't want something Our Father who aren't in heaven yeah we know that one but so so it's all intents and purposes you put something together but I think the trouble is is that so many people's um experience and and um interpretation of of what they think religion is and faith is um is something very negative at this point in history and and for understandable reasons it too often shows itself in the daily papers as just arguments going backwards and forwards between One exclusive denomination and another and it's the most off-putting thing for anyone to read so you cast it aside well you're the most onp putting if that's offputting we just love you and uh what you may not know is you know the whole world came to you in Canterbury and then when you left canabury you went out into the world so and and the gospels we talked about this a little bit the gospels you know on the way on the way on the way the physical way and the spiritual way and you guys are still on the way and we are so psych that your way brought you here thank you because just in Antiquity everybody came that's how that's how people learn from people on the way you brought the news and you brought yourselves and incarnate in each of you as a Grace upon Grace and we are super grateful that you great huge pleasure to be here for thank you thank you